http://media.scion.ca/releases/2013-scion-fr-s-brings-the-sport-234313. Ask him whether the probability of winning is the same if you bought 1000 tickets rather than one ticket. Let’s consider a car with rolling stiffness equal on front and rear. question ( how i got to this article in the first place): i am researching to find ‘the perfect foundation’ car. This can also help earlier corner exit. Here are some of the benefits of having a rear weight bias: The reason for these benefits is as follows: Better braking: The Porsche 911 (just an example, could be a GT40 or Ferrari) has always been known for its great braking ability. Although he did not say it I assume the author was not intending to imply that weight in large amounts actually behind the rear axle would help with turning. Weight is the single most important factor in developing this car – … 50 Plus Market Facts & Distribution Info; Community Partnerships; Distribution Area; Multiple Solutions; Online Specifications; Print Specifications; Video Solutions; Submissions . 50 – 50 is more of a psychological sale strategy as the average human being always feels that equal is safe and perfect while in fact it does not matter at all! Or does it have to be within the DHCP servers (or routers) defined subnet? So his "whole premise of his reasoning is wrong" as you say because he is ignoring millions of possible outcomes! var2-40.28 17.177394 I’ve seen a few of these in action at trackdays, and remember watching one battling an S14 Silvia, a car much closer to 50:50 than the MR2. My credentials: My car has a rearward weight bias and is mid/rear engined. I have answered the general reasons for why it will be faster in the main post. These control arms took some camber out of the front wheels and tamed the ‘loose’ sporty handling of the car. This car does not turn it plows. My BRZ hardly rolls at all in a turn, but comparatively it also doesn’t turn at all, so there’s that as well… Both were bone stock. From your message, I understand that the car is suffering from too much oversteer – that is, the rear of the car wants to come around. Roll the dice many times - say 50 or 60 - and write down the number of wins. It seems unsafe that motorcycles would have front brake dominance. I will try to give you a simple enough example… The GT86 might not be the prettiest or most refined sports car, but what every petrol-head loves it for is the way it handles. This article has given me quite a fresh insight and has brought to light a lot of things I didn’t realise. Rebuttals welcome. Someone decided the way your car handles is what they wanted or is simply good enough. no: either you win, or you don't. My main point is that in the above example you have one rubber ring that does almost all the breaking and another that does almost none. Explain that 50% chance to win means equal chance of winning and not winning, not that there are two outcomes. The resulting weight distribution, that creates larger moment forces in the rear, is both engineered out by tyres and suspension, as well as an adjusted driving style. A Single-Phase, 50 Hz Distribution Line has two conductors in parallel with a distance of 2.25 m apart. It’s not that the over all distubtion is poor, it’s that a large amount of weight is behind the rear axle. Anonymous, 24/7. You used race cars as examples for why 50/50 weight distribution is not ideal. – Better acceleration as weight is over the driving wheels (rear). But all things being equal, the MR is the ideal layout because of SCIENCE. We race on multiple surfaces usually wet clay limestone with warer we get plenty of slip and ruts but after a few laps rubber lays down and advans 048s grip well ! I understand that more weight at the rear makes the car oversteer because it works like a pendulum, but I always thought that lighter rear were more propensity to oversteer because it has less grip on the tires. It is the physics of adjusting weight on the 4 springs from front to rear and side to side. If I am incorrect I am also sure he will correct me. You can also look at different experiments and name the different probability distributions that emerge (I don't remember if my multiple coin example would involve a normal distribution or a binomial one but you can look it up). Both affect driving characteristics. Thanks for posting. I think the part about weight distribution that is generally not understood is how it is just one factor in a cars overall handling and performance. Another approach could be to get out of house to some basketball court and take shots blind-folded. The 50/50 distribution is optimal, because it makes the car’s handling neutral and that is the holy grail! People if you think 50/50 is optimum, do us all a favour and end…. This causes mechanical advantage in a turn, which causes the oversteer issues you keep referencing. Another answer suggested illustrating this with dice, and that could be one way: use dice, or even just a coin, to figure out the frequencies of different events. Definition N50. Demonstrate that, in a sea of blue pieces, the chances of him picking a red piece at random is incredibly slim, so even if the only possible outcomes are either winning or losing, it's much more likely to lose than to win. So lateral load in corning would be disproportionately put on the rear. But, think of the fastest car you know of. Likewise, if you could get the bike to have 50% of the weight on the front wheel 50% on the rear DURING extreme braking that would be ideal for braking traction using front-rear brakes (assuming identical tires front/rear). As long as the weight distribution (center of gravity) of the car favors the rear and is kept low, your car will brake better than a car with a forward bias. According to Porsche (we believe them) the optimum weight distribution for a sport / race car is 57% in rear axle and 43% in front axle. So instead of dividing 100% by 2, you should divide it by 10 to get a 10% chance of winning. my knowledge of that particular platform is both intimate and extensive. Rear bias weight distribution is better for number of reasons BUT having too much rear weight means in mid turns the car will understeer on power, this is exactly the tendency of rear weight bias car. So "banana" or "not banana" are not the same kind of thing. So, at each roll, there is a $1/6$ probability that the player wins. But speaking anecdotally, the 50/50 weight and the slight steady state (aka skippad) minor understeer seem to translate well on the track. So that’s why they invented the rear transaxle on their front engine cars, to keep weight balanced, ending up with close to 50/50 in those compromises. here is the first link, read the paragraph on B series: http://911evolution.com/911_20/911_20.htm, And a 2012 911s. This is neglecting the dynamics of counter-steering. If the number doesn't change between guesses then the chance of subsequent guesses being correct goes up. Ask him to put some of his lawn-mowing money down...and see if he really believes in his thesis. I suppose 50/50 is touted as ‘ideal’ in that from that neutral balance, you can access more of each style of cornering. – Always been good at mechanics (physics) It seems like your a little misinformed on some of the dynamics of handling. In fact if you’re not cornering you want 99.9% of the weight on the rear wheels AT the time of acceleration. Could you explain to me if that makes any sense? Are there 300,000 items in the average American household, and 10,000 items in the average European household? To everyone who wants to argue the whole weight distribution, Per summed it up pretty well in that its in the math (the math and the actual physics compliment each other perfectly). Surely, pushing the car through a high speed sweeper at racing speeds must have taken a substantial amount of skill and courage. 1: the above mentioned slightly aft biased weight distribution But, how that car actually feels in your hands, and how it behaves around corner, is the result of tuning the suspension. In order to win the lottery, you need to buy a winning ticket (which is a red piece) and not a losing ticket (which is a blue piece). In 2020, a season did eventually get underway in the second half of the year, but without fans and with little income for Liberty Media. As far as I have been able to research, and I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, BMW is the only major car company that strives to have all its cars with a 50/50 weight distribution. My BRZ understears badly. Excellent article. In fact, it's much easier than the lottery. This very low center of gravity (as explained above) cause much less dynamic weight transfer so the resulting case is not going much past 50/50 during braking. What is your chance of winning?". I’m sitting g in a BRZ. You seem to have misunderstood him. This is because the front brake locks the front tire and causes the bike to try to rotate and flip over the front. At indoor sites, we use wire racks and table top plastic stands to offer copies. F1 cars are en excellent case study of how engineers try to find the best weight distribution taking into account ALL the variables. Basically you want a double-wishbone or 5link for the best grip. The race engineers know that a rear-biased distribution is not ideal when it comes to handling and driving dynamics, but they know that the highly skilled drivers that will be operating them are capable enough to handle most any oversteer or imbalance that they will face as a result, thus making the added acceleration of a rear-biased worth it. Perfect distribution is somewhere around 45-55 rear, with dampers, springs, anti-rolls and camber all tuned accordingly after the distribution is correct. I’m not sure why those old Porsche’s maintained such difficult handling dynamics – they obviously knew the results of what they were doing and chose to stay with it. Tomorrow rains or not. All the Porsche Le Mans winners of the past (917 – 908 – 956 – 962 – 911Gt1) had this balance distribution. On the serious side, I am trying to quantify his answer from a mathematical perspective but I believe that the whole premise of his reasoning is wrong (but I am not sure where). Optimal weight distro is 40/60 for accelerating AND braking, but I guess he knows more than multi million dollar race teams. Get 10 or more coins, and tell your child that winning means all heads face up when you toss the coins. (Basically putting the driver and the engine in the middle gives smaller moment of inertia than having a transaxle layout and a comfortable legroom. No, they are not. Say that a player wins if they guess right the next outcome. It ALSO allows us to brake later at the end of a straight before corner entry which again is something that we want so to run faster lap times.. On entry, mild trail braking turns the car into a mild oversteerer and helps turn in. This concept is called classical probability. The Porsche has weight behind the rear tires. Without it, there is no concept of simulating a random draw from a probability distribution, so it is impossible for statistical calculations to have any meaning. I'd address the topic from here. The same thing applies during braking. The original 911 had skinny equal sized tires on all four corners and a suspension that wasn’t tuned as well as today’s cars. 50-50 reported data and each service’s procedures and internal management controls for collecting, aggregating, and validating depot maintenance information for purposes of responding to the section 2466 United States General Accounting Office Washington, DC 20548 Better ways to explain mutually exclusiveness and dependency of events. Mike, the big confusion about a 50-50 weight distribution is that it does not necessarily mean the car is going to have a well balanced feel. Versatility! This would mean that the front end weight is 1176lbs and a rear weight of 1624lbs and lets say that this hypothetical car has a center of gravity height of 15″ above ground and we will say that this car has a Wheelbase of 100″. Not quite. The point being that there isn't much difference between 0 and 0.000000001. Such cars have such high levels of grip and downforce, that when you eventually go too far, you’ll be traveling at such speeds that you have to be Ayrton Senna (or atleast a very sharp driver) to even have a chance to not crash. 50/50 is predictable and balanced, but by no means the ideal. The Principle is not applicable in this situation, since we do know how many winning tickets there are in the lottery, and how many tickets are possible. I think this will help clear up that question….. Did you learn it by being an engineer on a race team? I can assure you that your rear weight bias is not the cause of the problem. They just know the rules very well and don’t have to design cars with usable rear legroom. Do this as many times as you think is necessary, or until he gets bored and/or frustrated of losing over and over again. So he looked at it from a binary point of view: can't win or can win. A longer moment arm creates a larger counter-moment against this lifting effect to keep traction on the rear wheels. Only thing i can think of is adding weight to rear but where and how much ? I am trying to understand why my car handles so poorly. Axel should stick to motorcycles. (under breaking) as well. As for basketball, success in a single shot is determined by a continuous quantity (area). The reason cars and bikes have bigger front brakes is that under braking, the weight transfers to the front thus giving more grip to the front tyres. The guy above explains this as all BRZs, but I just can not imagine they all handle this poorly… This thing should not even be called a sports​ car. What he said was more like an invitation for discussion about the concept of "winning or not, as a single event". The first guess is 1/10, then 1/9 (because there are only 9 options if the first number was wrong), until it is a 100% chance on the tenth guess. Cheers. motorcycle dude. It gives the tendency to oversteer because of Newtons first law. Again, without teaching, you might start asking about what's the practical use of probability if you exclude "PROBABILITY" from it and just list outcomes. For super cars and race cars, the optimum weight distribution is 57% in rear and 43% in front axle. All other answers approach this from doing a different experiment, but that case it's all about explaining how those other events are similar instead of focusing on the lottery). There is only one way of winnning the lottery: Guessing all the numbers correctly. First you guessed a set of numbers ... one out of millions ... then you evaluated if that guess was right ... they are two different events. And that itself points out that the probability distribution the events follow itself depends on how you parcel out the probability space, how you define an "event" - are you conflating the head-tails possibilities or distinguishing the two? Trail brake, mid to late turn in. To get the most out of them, it’s best to trail brake (to keep the front loaded into the corner), get the car pointed asap to the exit, and then power down when straight. Events that are familiar are assumed to be more common. I would also suggest reading up on suspension tuning to help you analyze the problem and to meet your goals. Mate, you’re mumbling about how informal I am while adressing your raging negligence. East Godavari Collector D. Muralidhar Reddy has said that a team of 50 surveyors has been deployed for distribution of house site pattas to the … The same can be said of rear-biased cars. a balanced weight distribution would do neither as it would lose traction at the front and rear equally. So overall to get maximum cornering speed closer to 50-50 is ideal so that all tyres are at their max grip. The Miata is, and I wish I still had it instead of this awful thing. However, this is purely from the consideration of traction and doesn’t take into account centrifugal forces acting on the car through the turn. i dont have a motorcycle but i have a bicycle. But, as stated above, I agree that a good weight distribution is the starting point. Lets say you can choose six different numbers and each one can be between 0 and 99 - a hundred choices. Instead of providing any sort of answer, walking your son through reasoning it out himself, providing counterexamples to keep him thinking, will result in a far deeper understanding while likely giving him pride in finding the answer himself (encouraging future curiosity and discovery). Voluntarily blocking the rear wheel playing a role to give you a the trajectoire you want on loose terrain . This is one reason why even mid/rear engine sportscars don’t have their engines positioned all the way back. It’s slightly off topic but having any given weight distribution and wheelbase combination with more weight centralised near the centre of gravity is always better for faster cornering versus having the same WD and more mass built far away from the middle of the car. I am now sitting and thinking about a counter-argument. BTW, there are rumors about the new C7 corvette favoring a rearward weight distribution…. This is the case with pretty much all muscle cars. Present a deck of playing cards. Every car has a center of rotation, Can anyone guess where this is on a rear bias car? You are certain to win. You know, many formula cars that are not as heavily regulated have a ballast that can be moved to better suit the track. How big is your chance when you buy just one ticket? Because a rear weight bias has a natural tendency to cause oversteer (a trait that is deemed unsafe in street cars because it can cause a more severe crash) the geometry of the suspension and the springs rates are set up to limit traction at the front tires. When we have more mass, we have more weight transfer on rear than front. For a frontally mounted engine. you can not adjust the shocks (damping, rebound) and install different springs but tweaking camber, toe etc is obviously allowed. And also how the Nissan Delta wing works at all with its rear weight distribution at 72%. We (us bicyclers) never use the front brake except for emergencies. Weight a minute! There are a number of constraints that i would like to state here. b) Calculate the mean and standard deviation of low temperatures. Standard joke aside. The Turbo also understeers on the way out as the front lifts and some torque is thrown forwards, but to a much lesser degree – so I just initially aim inside the track out point then carry her out there on the gas. I'd hope if you're buying 90M tickets you're being careful and making sure one of them will definitely win. Once again it’s me, the motorcycle mechanic. The RX-8 and Miata both do. You seem to have misunderstood him. Thank you for reading my blog. why do you think that a rear weight bias gives the tendency to oversteer? Axel, please do not go calling me wrong while not providing any evidence or examples to prove your point. i dont have a motorcycle but i have a bicycle. I like the generalisation by data science guy Rob Arthur that humans tend to have only three settings -, “I think human beings are just sort of hardwired to do view in only those three categories". Point out that there are two outcomes, win and not win. Memes aside, a lot depends upon how the lottery is described too. The Big 50 interviews were conducted via email, survey and by phone by Industrial Distribution editorial staff. The beemers you drive hard in almost the same manner as you would while commuting, and they’ll drive like they are on rails without you thinking about it, but they are a bit cumbersome when swift direction changes are asked of them. I have explained this in the comments to this post: The big confusion about a 50-50 weight distribution is that it does not necessarily mean the car is going to have a well balanced feel. @RustyCore Your "definition"of probability applies only when all outcomes are equally likely. The fastest cars i race are a vw with a ls3 a bmw 1hzj i think ?? In kart racing, 48/52 or 47/53 is the preferred bias. Many modern mid/rear engine cars have nearly identical disc’s front and rear because during heavy braking events the brakes are more evenly loaded.